Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

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Re: Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

Postby BBO » 18. Apr. 2016, 21:19

Nommie wrote:Terrible race for me, at the beginning of lap 2 I moved over and hit someone, I did not know you were there, sorry. ( it may have been Bernd ?)...

Thank god this time it wasn’t me, I was behind you and saw you moved yourself and my teammate Barry out of the way ;-)


I had an amazing race.
Messed up the qualy doing half a second slower laps as I could do. Result: 8th in the grid.
In the race I was to careful the first few corners and got quickly passed by two. Survived the Hairpin start crash without a scratch but lost another place or two with moving around every stranded car. Then I touched later Alberto’s rear wheel and damaged my front wing, didn’t expected him to brake that early there. Sorry. Was then in 13th position.

Then I was a bit lucky because lots of more people made mistakes and I could pass some more. I was soon in 5th position only a few seconds behind Ken Baldwin and was getting closer, and then I saw he spun the car at T1. I was 4th. And I was happy, but 14 seconds behind.

Then I noticed I was catching up on Dean Snell on the 3rd place, lap by lap, 1 to 1.5 seconds. So I thought he must be damaged as well. I quickly calculated with 11 laps to go I should be able to get him at the end, so I started to focus and pushing some more and was only 9, 7, 5, 3, 2 seconds behind him, then with less than half a second behind I couldn’t easily pass him as he pushed himself. Then I also noticed Fulvio Genova was gaining on both of us very quickly and was only ~ 1.5 seconds away. So in lap 20 I finally slipstreamed Dean on the straight and passed him.
Lap 21 I saw in the mirrors that Genova passed Snell and oh they touched but he could move on.

Just one more lap to the podium - Don’t make stupid mistakes B.! – But I could control the last lap and did the last two turns in 3rd (lol) gear just to not risk losing the car so close to my first ever podium in this league. Lucky me :mrgreen:
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Re: Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

Postby BBO » 18. Apr. 2016, 22:55

Kade wrote:... Then he starts to turn in (what was unexpected) ...

Honestly?

Kade wrote:...By the rules, I fully agree with you this being my fault but that's why sometimes we have to judge if something was intentional or not...

Yes true but we also have to consider what happend because of just this (intentional or not) and you came off very well in the other races and incidents. For example Monza: Where you got away with just 1 warning (because the majority here decided against penalties, 3 times). And you also took the win there just because Fulvio acted like a gentleman thinking it was his fault and let you pass him again.

So I think it’s a bit odd to moan now about this penalty. You are such a fast driver and fast enough to get him later and decide the race later. There is no need to fight so aggressively in the first few corners and risk everything. By the way this ruined the race for half of the field. Think about that too please. And this is what had a big influence on our final penalty decision.

I can’t believe that you are saying you did not expect him to turn in at this corner after he slipstreamed you and that you did not know that he can’t take this corner in any other way without leaving the track and probably getting a penalty on the red patch. There is no way you can take this corner side by side at this speed.

Yes you braked earlier and tried to avoid it but it still went wrong and I know it’s a decision made in seconds and of course you did it not on purpose. But it happened and spoiled the race for many others, while you were the lucky one (and lifting off the brakes at the right moment before touching him in a perfect angle to not turn yourself around as well – while I’m not saying you did this on purpose – I just noticed it in the replay).
lifting-the-brakes.jpg

We can talk for hours about this but I’m not in the mood for that today and there's nothing in it for you. The decision is final and we all know that you did not plan it nor did you do it on purpose or that you are a bad person. It just happened because of wrong decisions.

So take it like a man and let’s move on.
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Re: Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

Postby Kade » 19. Apr. 2016, 02:01

The penalty itself was not the problem but this atmosphere of misunderstanding my situation there.. It may look like I was divebombing there but that was not the case. I tried to explain my point of view and all I receive are these hostile-sounding "you know nothing" answers.

BBO wrote:
Kade wrote:... Then he starts to turn in (what was unexpected) ...

Honestly?



Yeah, it's funny to put like that. Of course he was going to turn into the corner but I rarely see such boldness cutting the car inside by few centimeters. I am used to race with "gentleman" rules mainly on ALOOG1-server and it's just common sense to avoid incident even if you weren't the driver making the mistake. Usually that kind of behavior on public races is just asking for trouble.

BBO wrote:There is no way you can take this corner side by side at this speed.


I strongly disagree, there's plenty of room to take this corner side by side and is one of the most popular overtaking sections of the track in Formula 1 for example.

BBO wrote:Yes true but we also have to consider what happend because of just this (intentional or not) and you came off very well in the other races and incidents. For example Monza: Where you got away with just 1 warning (because the majority here decided against penalties, 3 times). And you also took the win there just because Fulvio acted like a gentleman thinking it was his fault and let you pass him again.


To be honest, that sounds a bit personal already.. We discussed the Monza race before and there was confusion who should let who to pass. I just reread the Racing Rules and there is no mention about past incidents to have influence on new ones. From all this I get a feeling that reporting drivers is all right while defending themselves is not. At the same time you say

BBO wrote:There is no need to fight so aggressively in the first few corners and risk everything.


and

BBO wrote:The decision is final and we all know that you did not plan it nor did you do it on purpose or that you are a bad person.


I am not native english speaker but to me that sounds contradictory..


BBO wrote:By the way this ruined the race for half of the field. Think about that too please. And this is what had a big influence on our final penalty decision.


Yes I am aware of that and very sorry that happened. However like I have said many times I was being extra careful in that situation and Fulvio took advantage of it, resulting in the incident which should have never happened. I could have braked at my usual braking point and cut the inside line before he could make a move and take a risk that I wouldn't be able to slow down outside of the racing line. I am just unable to understand why this is not treated as a racing incident but as my recklessness.

My first thought after the incident was: "I couldn't do anything because he squeezed me in, must be treated as a racing incident.." and my next thought was: "Should I still wait him? Better move out of the way, the whole field is approaching.." but probably you wouldn't believe that.. And to be honest, I still think so.

BBO wrote:So take it like a man and let’s move on.


I guess I'm too young to take this "like a man" after I try to defend myself and receive an answer written so provoking style.. So sorry about this as well.
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Re: Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

Postby BBO » 20. Apr. 2016, 00:17

I am sorry, I’ve had a hard day yesterday and was stressed-out and it was late and I was annoyed that we had again to deal with almost the same situation, every 2 weeks.
And the language barrier doesn't help either. I didn’t wanted to sound rude, provocative or violating. My apologies to you Niko if it was like that; or sounded like that. I'm sorry.

My intention was to tell you, that it this crash was not necessary from our point of view.
You had a few option to not crash, either give up the corner or not give up that corner but it was a bit like “the glass is half full or half empty” or like we say here “no fish, no meat” which means it was something in between.

A.
- If you give up the corner then you have to stay back – you tried, you braked, but it was to late and you crashed him.

B.
- If you don’t give up the corner - you have to brake later, stay next to him/ side by side, so he can’t turn in because it’s not his corner and you are still there.

But with your earlier braking you did not gave him the right signal, that you did not wanted to give up or that you wanted to go side by side through that corner.
Hairpin.jpg

We punished after the last races everyone with enough seconds so they would lose at least 1 position, like for example Lojelo or Prenten, and that’s what we did now again. It has nothing to do with being personal or harsh; it was just based on the whole situation. It’s a difference if it happens between two guys during the race or if it happens at the start taking half the field with you.

What would you consider as fair? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Just a warning? Or should we call it an unlucky race incident? Should it have no effect on your race result, while it had on more than half of the grid?

It’s difficult and hard to find a fair way for everyone. Especially when I, as the messenger, have to explain it every other week to a lot of people that are complaining about things like that via PM as well.

In the end it was unlucky of course and not intentional, but not only in my eyes, it could have been avoided.
So the decision stands as it is and I will now move on to the next round.
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Re: Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

Postby Kade » 23. Apr. 2016, 01:47

No problem, I learned my lesson to not respect lap 1 rules and just go all-in from the start. My mistake was to be too careful and I should've never braked earlier than my reference point (90m). The situation was absurd and should have never happened in the first place. I just reread the racing conduct again and there's no mention of lap 1 awareness, so that wasn't even a rule in this league, my bad.. :)

For the future maybe consider race restart in situation like this, which would be red-flagged for sure in real life. Maybe write a rule for restarts that positions lost/gained must be arranged in such way it was before the incident (maybe a formation lap?).

I tried to defend myself saying this incident wasn't my fault because I couldn't avoid the collision in that situation. Now I get it that I shouldn't have been careful in the first place and the penalty was well deserved. See you in the next race!

-Niko
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Re: Round 7 - Hockenheimring GP

Postby BBO » 23. Apr. 2016, 13:24

You are writing things (lap 1 rule) I have never said or written. All I wrote and meant is that
it is a huge difference if you crash with someone during the race and only you two are involved and not even a complaint is written
or
if you crash during the start of the race with someone (for whatever reason) and half of the field is damaged later and 8 people complain about it and their races and fun racing this league is spoiled once more.

Then we watch this incident a lot of times, discuss it, vote about it (in case we all don’t have the same view on it) and decide about the height of the penalty or a penalty at all.

From the rules
Incidents are:
- causing an avoidable collision

That’s how we saw it

From the rules
Penalties:
The stewards or the race admin may impose a time penalty from 5 seconds up to a maximum of 25 seconds on any driver involved in an incident.

That’s what we did


And as you brought up the “Gentleman discussion” some posts back:
Kade wrote:...I am used to race with "gentleman" rules...

From the rules
If you hit another driver resulting in a spin, a crash, or if the driver goes off track, be a gentleman: slow down, wait for him, stay off the racing line and give that driver his place back.

To me that means, when I have the feeling that it could have been my fault, than I have to act on the track like that. You didn’t saw the incident it like that, that’s ok.
But you could have remembered Monza, where Fulvio just thought it was his mistake and lets you pass him again (even though he didn’t had to). Last race would have been the perfect situation to do the same to pay back the respect he gave to you in other races.

Kade wrote:... He could have easily avoided my car after seeing we won't make it and if I had passed and refused to give his position back, he could have make the complaint afterwards...

This way of thinking about it is to me not the finest or the “gentleman way” to be honest.


I can only remember a few situations during the past races where drivers acted like real gentlemen. A spin, a crash etc. Was it their fault? Nevermind, they waited and gave the place back, to then start fighting again and sort it out on the track not with words or complains afterwards.
I experienced myself during this league something very nice. I apologized to someone because I was not 100% sure if it was my or his fault but he did not file a complaint. But he had the same thinking and wrote me that he also wanted to apologize and I can file a complaint as he was not sure if it was him or me. So we came to the agreement that it was unlucky and that we both try to be more careful and we didn’t care about losing a place or some points or not. Because at first; we want to race each other and have fun.


But all the above will not change your view on this and it won’t change our view on what happened.

We tried to be excessively polite during this league and explained way too much of why we did this or that regarding penalties and we won’t do this anymore in future leagues, that’s what we learned. You can't be everybody's darling.

For the next leagues we will only post short decisions like:
- causing an avoidable collision
Driver XY get a penalty of +XX seconds

No discussion, no further explanation or trying to make people to rethink their own views or behaviour, as it seems to be useless and leads to nowhere or just to more frustration.

And therefore I close and lock this thread now - Because this case was already closed.

Thank you for your input and ideas about restarts etc.
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